I continue my refutation of Ally’s deceit and misinformation: https://answeringallah.com/exposing-more-of-shabir-allys-misinformation-and-deceit-pt-1/
THE FLOOD OF NOAH AND MOSES
Here’s another one of Ally’s slanders against the late Dr. Morey:
Similarly, Morey had imagined a historical confusion in the Qur’an when he noticed that Surah 7:64 mentioned the flood of Noah, and then 7:136 mentioned the drowning of the Pharaoh. Morey then accused the Qur’an of claiming that Noah’s flood occurred in Moses’ day. He was delighted to say about this imagined error in the Quran:
This error cannot be easily swept aside (Morey, Invasion, p.141).
On the contrary, the imagined error washes away when we read the Surah. Had Morey read the Surah he would have noticed that the Qur’an concludes a description of the flood of Noah in verse 64, and does not begin mention of Moses until verse 103. And the thirty-eight verses between these episodes deal with a number of other times and places. Thus the confusion is not in the Qur’an but in the mind of Morey.
Question to Dr. Morey: Did you read this Surah? If not, why not? And if yes, How did you manage to make such an obvious mistake?… (Ally, Reply to Robert Morey’s Source of Islam Theories)
This is another one of Ally’s red herrings and smoke and mirror tactics, due to his utter failure to address the actual objection. Ally realized he couldn’t refute Morey’s point and so chose to deflect the readers’ attention away from the real issue.
Note, once again, what Morey had written:
- Noah’s flood did not take place in Moses’ day (Sura 7:136, compare 7:59ff.). This error cannot be easily swept aside. (Morey, p. 161)
What Morey was stressing is the Quran’s confusion of ascribing another flood at the time of Moses, other than the one that took place during the days of Noah. Since God only brought upon a single flood in which he destroyed evildoers, Morey was correct in stating that this flood could not have taken place in Moses’s day.
Here are the passages in question, along with additional information so as to help the readers see the problem that Ally failed to address:
We sent Noah (of old) unto his people, and he said: O my people! Serve Allah. Ye have no other God save Him. Lo! I fear for you the retribution of an Awful Day. The chieftains of his people said: Lo! we see thee surely in plain error. He said: O my people! There is no error in me, but I am a messenger from the Lord of the Worlds. I convey unto you the messages of my Lord and give good counsel unto you, and know from Allah that which ye know not. Marvel ye that there should come unto you a Reminder from your Lord by means of a man among you, that he may warn you, and that ye may keep from evil, and that haply ye may find mercy. But they denied him, so We saved him and those with him in the ship, and We drowned those who denied Our tokens. Lo! they were blind folk. S. 7:59-64 Pickthall
And verily we sent Noah (as Our messenger) unto his folk, and he continued with them for a thousand years save fifty years; and the flood (al-toofanu) engulfed them, for they were wrong-doers. S. 29:14 Pickthall
So We sent against them the flood (al-toofana) and the locusts and the vermin and the frogs and the blood – a succession of clear signs. But they were arrogant and became a guilty folk. And when the terror fell on them they cried: O Moses! Pray for us unto thy Lord, because He hath a covenant with thee. If thou removest the terror from us we verily will trust thee and will let the Children of Israel go with thee. S. 7:133-134 Pickthall
The Quran uses the exact same Arabic term for flood, which erroneously assumes that God actually caused it to flood at time of both Noah and Moses. The Muslim scripture even lists this flood as one of the plagues that God supposedly sent down upon Pharaoh and his people!
Suffice it to say this is a serious error that is contradicted by biblical history since no such flood ever occurred during the Exodus.
Therefore, Morey was merely reporting what scholars have noted for a long time, namely, Muhammad mistakenly thought that Allah sent forth a flood upon the Egyptians, even though the only flood that ever occurred was the one at Noah’s time:
- A Flood upon the Egyptians?
Question 63: We read in Sura al-A’raf 7:133: “So We let loose upon them the flood and the locusts, the lice and the frogs, the blood, distinct signs; but they waxed proud and were a sinful people.”
The plagues God sent upon Egypt were ten: blood (Exodus 7:20), frogs (Exodus 8:6), gnats (Exodus 8:17), flies (Exodus7:24), death of livestock (Exodus 9:6), boils (Exodus 9:10), hail (Exodus 9:23), locusts (Exodus 10:14), darkness (Exodus 10:23), and death of the firstborn (Exodus 12:29,30).
As for the flood mentioned in Sura al-A’raf, there was no such event that happened in Egypt during the time of Pharaoh. What the Qur’an is confusing here is the global deluge that occurred during the days of Noah, as it is expressed in Sura al-A’raf 7:63,64 [see also Genesis 6-9]. (‘Abdallah ‘Abd al-Fadi, Is the Qu’ran Infallible? [Light of Life, P.O. Box 13, A-9503, Villach, Austria], pp. 88-89; bold emphasis mine)
“… Muhammad is not clear about the plagues. In some passages2 he speaks of nine plagues. In another passage2 he enumerates five, which stand in the following order: Flood, Locusts, Lice, Frogs and Blood. Although we cannot here find fault with the want of order in the plagues and with the omission of some of them since Muhammad here is not, any more than is the Psalmist,4 to be considered as a strict historian, get the mistaken inclusion of a flood, which is not to be confounded with the overthrow in the sea,5 may fairly be considered as a proof of the want of reliable information on the subject. The fear of the Israelites6 at the approach of the Egyptians by the sea is also mentioned by Muhammad.7” (Abraham Geiger, Judaism and Islam, CHAPTER TWO: Stories borrowed from Judaism, SECOND PART. Moses and his times, p. 127 https://answeringislam.net/Books/Geiger/Judaism/chap22.htm; bold emphasis mine)
(134) A flood. Arnold thinks the allusion must be to the deluge, inasmuch as the drowning in the Red Sea occurred after the plagues (Islam and Christianity, p.140). But the story of Noah, given in this chapter, vers. 60-65, shows that Muhammad did not mean the deluge in speaking of a flood here. We must therefore regard this statement as either an addition to the Jewish story or as referring to the drowning in the Red Sea. Historical accuracy is not one of the virtues of the oracle of Islam, as this chapter abundantly illustrates. Muslim commentators, as Baidhawi, &c., understand a deluge to be meant, and describe it as given in the following from Sale’s notes on this passage : -“This inundation, they say, was occasioned by unusual rains, which continued eight days together, and the overflowing of the Nile; and not only covered their lands, but came into their houses, and rose as high as their backs and necks; but the children of Israel had no rain in their quarters. As there is no mention of any such miraculous inundation in the Mosaic writings, some have imagined this plague to have been either a pestilence or the smallpox, or some other epidemical distemper. For the word tufan, which is used in this place, and is generally rendered a deluge, may also signify any other universal destruction or mortality.” (E. M. Wherry, A Comprehensive Commentary on the Quran, VII. ENTITLED SURAT AL ARAF (THE PARTITION WALL), p. 231; bold emphasis mine)
It will not help Ally’s case to harp that the Holy Bible is corrupted since the Quran attests that it came to confirm the textual preservation and divine origin of the very Scriptures of the Jews and Christians available at Muhammad’s time:
Children of Israel, remember My blessing wherewith I blessed you, and fulfil My covenant and I shall fulfil your covenant; and have awe of Me. And believe in that I have sent down, confirming that which is with you, and be not the first to disbelieve in it. And sell not My signs for a little price; and fear you Me. And do not confound the truth with vanity, and do not conceal the truth wittingly. And perform the prayer, and pay the alms, and bow with those that bow. Will you bid others to piety, and forget yourselves while you recite the Book? Do you not understand? S. 2:40-44
When there came to them a Book from God, confirming what was with them — and they aforetimes prayed for victory over the unbelievers — when there came to them that they recognized, they disbelieved in it; and the curse of God is on the unbelievers. S. 2:89
And when they were told, ‘Believe in that God has sent down,’ they said, ‘We believe in what was sent down on us’; and they disbelieve in what is beyond that, yet it is the truth confirming what is with them. Say: ‘Why then were you slaying the Prophets of God in former time, if you were believers?’ S. 2:91
Say: ‘Whosoever is an enemy to Gabriel — he it was that brought it down upon thy heart by the leave of God, confirming what was before it, and for a guidance and good tidings to the believers. S. 2:97
When there has come to them a Messenger from God confirming what was with them, a party of them that were given the Book reject the Book of God behind their backs, as though they knew not, S. 2:101
You who have been given the Book, believe in what We have sent down, confirming what is with you, before We obliterate faces, and turn them upon their backs, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-men, and God’s command is done. S. 4:47
Yet how will they make thee their judge seeing they have the Torah, wherein is God’s judgment, then thereafter turn their backs? They are not believers. Surely We sent down the Torah, wherein IS guidance and light; thereby the Prophets who had surrendered themselves gave judgment for those of Jewry, as did the masters and the rabbis, following such portion of God’s Book as they were given to keep and were witnesses to. So fear not men, but fear you Me; and sell not My signs for a little price. Whoso judges not according to what God has sent down – they are the unbelievers. And therein We prescribed for them: ‘A life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and for wounds retaliation’; but whosoever forgoes it as a freewill offering, that shall be for him an expiation. Whoso judges not according to what God has sent down — they are the evildoers… And We have sent down to thee the Book with the truth, confirming the Book that was before it, and assuring it. So judge between them according to what God has sent down, and do not follow their caprices, to forsake the truth that has come to thee. To every one of you We have appointed a right way and an open road. If God had willed, He would have made you one nation; but that He may try you in what has come to you. So be you forward in good works; unto God shall you return, all together; and He will tell you of that whereon you were at variance. S. 5:43-45, 48
We gave Moses the Scripture– so [Muhammad] do not doubt that you are receiving it– and We made it a guide for the Children of Israel. S. 32:23 (Abdel Haleem https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/32/st3.htm)
The Islamic scripture further exhorted Muhammad and his followers to ask the Jews and Christians to consult their Scriptures about their own sacred history, as well as to verify his own so-called revelations:
Ask of the Children of Israel how many a clear revelation We gave them! He who altereth the grace of Allah after it hath come unto him (for him), lo! Allah is severe in punishment. S. 2:211
And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers. S. 10:94
And certainly We gave Musa nine clear signs; so ask the children of Israel. When he came to them, Firon said to him: Most surely I deem you, O Musa, to be a man deprived of reason. S. 17:101
Muhammad himself called for and praised the Torah in the possession of the Jews, even judging them by that very copy:
Narrated Abdullah Ibn Umar:
A group of Jews came and invited the Messenger of Allah to Quff. So he visited them in their school.
They said: AbulQasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman; so pronounce judgment upon them. They placed a cushion for the Messenger of Allah who sat on it and said: Bring the Torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying: I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee.
He then said: Bring me one who is learned among you. Then a young man was brought. The transmitter then mentioned the rest of the tradition of stoning similar to the one transmitted by Malik from Nafi'(No. 4431).
Grade: Hasan (Al-Albani)
Reference: Sunan Abi Dawud 4449
In-book reference: Book 40, Hadith 99
English translation: Book 39, Hadith 4434 (Sunnah.com https://sunnah.com/abudawud/40/99; emphasis mine)
Herein lies the problems for Ally and his fellow dawagandists. These very Scriptures outright deny that a flood ever took place at Moses’ time!
Had such a flood occurred then the Holy Bible would have surely mentioned it, something which the Islamic sources agree with since they plainly state that God granted Moses a fully detailed Scripture which explains everything:
Then We gave Moses the Book complete as to whatever is excellent, and explaining all things in detail, and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord. And this (the Qur’an) is a Book which We have revealed, blessed: so follow it and be righteous, that you may receive mercy: lest you should say, “The Book was sent down to two peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study;’ or lest you should say: “If the Book (Torah and Gospel) had only been sent down to us, we should have followed its guidance better than they.” S. 6:154-157
He said: O Moses! I have preferred thee above mankind by My messages and by My speaking (unto thee). So hold that which I have given thee, and be among the thankful. And We wrote for him, upon the tablets, the lesson to be drawn from all things AND THE EXPLANATION OF ALL THINGS, then (bade him): Hold it fast; and command thy people (saying): Take the better (course made clear) therein. I shall show thee the abode of evil-livers. S. 7:144-145
Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger as saying: There was an argument between Adam and Moses in the presence of their Lord. Adam came the better of Moses. Moses said: Are you that Adam whom Allah created with His Hand and breathed into him His spirit, and commanded angels to fall in prostration before him and He made you live in Paradise with comfort and ease. Then you caused the people to get down to the earth because of your lapse. Adam said: Are you that Moses whom Allah selected for His Messengership and for His conversation with him and conferred upon you THE TABLETS, IN WHICH EVERYTHING WAS CLEARLY EXPLAINED and granted you the audience in order to have confidential talk with you. What is your opinion, how long Torah would have been written before I was created? Moses said: Forty years before. Adam said: Did you not see these words: Adam committed an error and he was enticed to (do so). He (Moses) said: Yes. Whereupon, he (Adam) said: Do you then blame me for an act which Allah had ordained for me forty years before He created me? Allah’s Messenger said: This is how Adam came the better of Moses. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6411 http://searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=033&translator=2&start=0&number=6411; bold and capital emphasis mine)
And, as we saw above, this very Scripture was in the possession of the Jews and Christians of Muhammad’s day.
Unfortunately for Shabir and his fellow Muhammadans, Moses’ revelation denies that one of the plagues which befell the Egyptians included a flood.
Hence, the foregoing simply highlights Muhammad’s gross confusion regarding the specific details of the stories he was hearing. As a result, Muhammad ended up garbling up and collapsing different historical events and individuals together. I.e., a Samaritan at the time of Moses, Haman being placed at the Exodus even though he lived during the time of Esther, Gideon confused with Saul, Mary the sister of Moses confused with the mother of Christ etc.
Morey was therefore right when he stated:
The seventh-century Arab, and Muhammad in particular, did not think in terms of linear time, that is, historical chronology.
In the West, people think of history in terms of a straight line with a beginning, a middle, and an end.
In the East, people think of time in terms of neverending cycles.
Evidently, in the Middle East at the time of Muhammad, Arabs did not have any settled conception of time at all.
Arab stories and legends put together places, people, and events in one present vision as if they were all living at the same time!
This is why throughout the Quran, Nimrod and Abraham, Haman and Moses, Mary and Aaron, etc. were all pictured as living and working together.
This is why the Quran can put together the flood and Moses, the tower of Babel and Pharoah, etc. as if all those things happened at the same time.
This is a very serious challenge to the integrity of the Quran because it violates the historical chronology of the Bible and secular history at the same time. (Ibid., pp. 158-159)
So much for Ally’s “refutation”.