I am posting my responses to Muslim polemicist Abdullah Kunde, which originally appeared on David Wood’s blog.
Australian debater Abdullah Kunde is apparently making the same mistake virtually every Muslim debater makes: he’s so focused on raising criticisms against Christianity, he fails to see how those same criticisms would, if accurate, refute Islam. Sam Shamoun draws attention to one such error on Abdullah’s part (which Abdullah made in his recent debate with Samuel Green). What follows is Sam’s reply.
Kunde’s argument that God is not omnipotent because he is obligated to save all those who accept Jesus’ sacrifice is not only an absurd claim, but it actually backfires against him.
The Quran says Allah has bound himself to give paradise as a reward to all those martyrs who murder people in the cause of their god:
Verily, Allah has purchased of the believers their lives and their properties; for the price that theirs shall be the Paradise. They fight in Allah’s Cause, so they kill (others) and are killed. It is a promise in truth which is BINDING ON HIM in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) and the Qur’an. And who is truer to his covenant than Allah? Then rejoice in the bargain which you have concluded. That is the supreme success. S. 9:111 Hilali-Khan
Also notice what Muhammad is reported to have said:
It is narrated on the authority of Mu’adh b. Jabal: I was riding behind the Prophet and there was nothing between him and me but the rear part of the saddle, when he said: Mu’adh b. Jabal: To which I replied: At your beck and call, and at your pleasure, Messenger of Allah! He moved along for a few minutes, when again he said: Mu’adh b. Jabal: To which I replied: At your beck and call, and at your pleasure, Messenger of Allah! He then again moved along for a few minutes and said: Mu’adh b. Jabal: To which I replied. At your beck and call, and at your pleasure. Messenger of Allah He, (the Holy Prophet) said: Do you know what right has Allah upon His servants? I said: Allah and His Messenger know best. He (the Holy Prophet) said: Verily the right of Allah over His servants is that they should worship Him, not associating anything with Him. He (the Holy Prophet) with Mu’adh behind him, moved along for a few minutes and said: Mu’adh b. Jabal: To which I replied: At your beck and call, and at your pleasure, Messenger of Allah! He (the Holy Prophet) said: Do you know what rights have servants upon Allah in case they do it (i.e. they worship Allah without associating anything with Him)? I (Mu’adh b. Jabal) replied: Allah and His Messenger know best. (Upon this) he (the Holy Prophet) remarked: That He would not torment them (with the fire of Hell). (Sahih Muslim, Book 1, Number 46)
It is narrated on the authority of Mu’adh b. Jabal that the Messenger of Allah said: Mu’adh, do you know the right of Allah over His bondsmen? He (Mu’adh) said: Allah and His Apostle know best. He said: That Allah alone should be worshipped and nothing should be associated with Him. He (the Holy Prophet) said: What right have they (bondsmen) upon Him in case they do it? He (Mu’adh) said: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy Prophet) said: That He would not punish them. (Sahih Muslim, Book 1, Number 48)
Here Muhammad says that Muslims have rights over Allah just as he has rights over them. The right that Muslims have over Allah is that he must save them from punishment if they believe that there is no god besides him.
This is the height of blasphemy since no creature can ever claim any rights over God so that God must or is forced to do something for that creature.
As the Apostle Paul put it, no one will ever be able to boast before God or make him a debtor on account of what they have done:
“Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments,and his paths beyond tracing out! ‘Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?’ ‘Who has ever given to God, that God should repay them?’ For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.” Romans 11:33-36
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” Ephesians 2:8-10
Paul was merely echoing what the OT writers had known and affirmed:
“If you are righteous, what do you give to him? Or what does he receive from your hand?” Job 35:7
“Who then is he who can stand before me? Who has first given to me, that I should repay him? Whatever is under the whole heaven is mine.” Job 41:10b-11
This next hadith is even worse:
It is narrated on the authority of Mu’adh b. Jabal that he observed: I was riding behind the Messenger of Allah on an ass known as ‘Ufair. He (Mu’adh) observed: He (the Holy Prophet) said: Mu’adh, do you know what right has Allah over His bondsmen and what right have His bondsmen over Him? Mu’adh added: I replied: Allah and his Messenger know best. Upon this he (the Holy Prophet remarked: The right of Allah over His bondsmen is that they should worship Allah and should not associate anything with Him, and the right of His bondsmen over Allah, Glorious and Sublime, is that He does not punish him who associates not anything with Him. He (Mu’adh) added: I said to the Messenger of Allah: Should I then give the tidings to the people? He (the Holy Prophet) said: Do not tell them this GOOD NEWS, for they would trust in it alone. (Sahih Muslim, Book 1, Number 47)
Not only do Muslims have rights over Allah, thereby making Allah impotent per Kunde’s logic, this hadith also exposes Muhammad as a transgressor who willfully broke Allah’s orders. For instance, the Quran tells Muhammad that he has to convey the message he receives from his impotent deity:
O Messenger (Muhammad)! Proclaim (the Message) which has been sent down to you from your Lord. And if you do not, then you have not conveyed His Message. Allah will protect you from mankind. Verily, Allah guides not the people who disbelieve. S. 5:67 Hilali-Khan
Allah warns Muhammad to convey his message to mankind, otherwise he will fail in his mission if he doesn’t do so.
Yet according to the above hadith Muhammad hid some of the so-called revelation from his followers and forbids Muadh from making known to the rest of the Muslims an important piece of information which Allah had supposedly given to him and which he himself called good news!
What makes this all the more intriguing is that Muadh obviously didn’t listen to Muhammad and chose to dishonor his prophet by publishing this information to the rest of the Muslims. After all, we wouldn’t have known this piece of information had Muadh not opened his mouth and told it to others.
This now places Kunde in a bit of a dilemma. If Allah has bound himself by a promise to give his jihadists paradise for killing and being killed in his cause, and if he has also committed himself to saving Muslims from punishment because of their confessing and believing that he is the only deity worthy of worship then this makes him impotent since he cannot do otherwise. However, if Allah isn’t under any necessary obligation to save anyone and doesn’t have to commit to keeping his promise or fulfilling his obligation to his servants then this means that Allah is a lying, deceitful, capricious deity who cannot be taken at his word. Such a god cannot be trusted and is unworthy of being worshiped.
So much for Kunde’s logic.
This is a continuation from the previous post: Responding to Muhammadan Abdullah Kunde Pt. 1.
As I noted in a previous post, Abdullah Kunde is making the classic Muslim Debater’s Blunder. He’s tossing criticisms at Christianity without considering whether those criticisms would also apply to Islam. Sam Shamoun draws attention to yet another inconsistency on Abdullah’s part. What follows is from Sam.
Kunde claimed that Christ’s sacrifice is illogical:
“Why do I say these things? Well, as I said, first of all the method of salvation is illogical, absolutely illogical. How’s it logical that somebody should be punished for something that, a) they didn’t do, because we assume that God wasn’t part of the whole original sin thing with Adam; that b) I should be punished for something I didn’t do because I didn’t eat in the garden. And that c) it’s the punishment of an individual who didn’t even commit the sin at all, who created the system in the first place and that sets it all back in motion. If you are kind of lost in what I am saying there it’s because it doesn’t make sense.”
By using such argumentation Kunde ends up once again condemning his own god and prophet. Unlike Kunde, Muhammad had no problem with people being punished for the sins of others since he taught that Adam’s transgression led to all of mankind being expelled from the garden:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, “Adam and Moses argued with each other. Moses said to Adam. ‘O Adam! You are our father WHO DISAPPOINTED US AND TURNED US OUT OF PARADISE.’ Then Adam said to him, ‘O Moses! Allah favored you with His talk (talked to you directly) and He wrote (the Torah) for you with His Own Hand. Do you blame me for action WHICH ALLAH HAD WRITTEN IN MY FATE forty years before my creation?’ So Adam confuted Moses, Adam confuted Moses,” the Prophet added, repeating the Statement three times. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 77, Number 611)
It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira and Hudhaifa that the Messenger of Allah said: Allah, the Blessed and Exalted, would gather people. The believers would stand till the Paradise would be brought near them. They would come to Adam and say: O our father, open for us the Paradise. He would say: What turned you out from the Paradise WAS THE SIN OF YOUR FATHER ADAM. I am not in a position to do that; … (Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0380)
Kunde’s prophet also blamed Eve for wives rebelling against their husbands, and even blamed the Jews for food becoming stale and meat decaying!
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, “Were it not for Bani Israel, meat would not decay; and were it not FOR EVE, no woman would ever betray her husband.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 611)
Hammam b. Munabbih said: These are some of the ahadith which Abu Huraira narrated to us from Allah’s Messenger, and one of these (this one): Allah’s Messenger said: Had it not been for Bani Isra’il, food would not have become stale, and meal would not have gone bad; and had it not been FOR Eve, a woman would never have acted unfaithfully toward her husband. (Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3472)
But that’s not all. Muhammad further claimed that the reason why human beings do not walk around naked, but instead cover themselves, is because of the shame which the sin of Adam and Eve brought upon mankind:
And (We said): O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the garden; so eat from where you O Adam, inherit, thou and thy wife, the Garden, and eat of where you will, but come not nigh this tree, lest you be of the evildoers.’ Then Satan whispered to them, to reveal to them that which was hidden from them of their shameful parts. He said, ‘Your Lord has only prohibited you from this tree lest you become angels, or lest you become immortals.’ And he swore to them, ‘Truly, I am for you a sincere adviser.’ So he led them on by delusion; and when they tasted the tree, their shameful parts revealed to them, so they took to stitching upon themselves leaves of the Garden. And their Lord called to them, ‘Did not I prohibit you from this tree, and say to you, “Verily Satan is for you a manifest foe”?’ They said, ‘Lord, we have wronged ourselves, and if Thou dost not forgive us, and have mercy upon us, we shall surely be among the lost.’ Said He, ‘Get you down, each of you an enemy to each. In the earth a sojourn shall be yours, and enjoyment for a time.’ Said He, ‘Therein you shall live, and therein you shall die, and from there you shall be brought forth.’ Children of Adam! We have sent down on you a garment to cover your shameful parts, and feathers; and the garment of godfearing — that is better; that is one of God’s signs; haply they will remember. Children of Adam! Let not Satan tempt you as he brought your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their garments to show them their shameful parts. Surely he sees you, he and his tribe, from where you see them not. We have made the Satans the friends of those who do not believe. S. 7:19-27 Arberry
Muhammad also taught that mankind forgets and makes mistakes because Adam forgot and made a mistake:
Commenting on this Ayah (7:172), At-Tirmidhi recorded that Abu Hurayrah said that the Messenger of Allah said…
((… So Adam denied that and HIS OFFSPRING FOLLOWED SUIT (denying Allah’s covenant), Adam forgot and HIS OFFSPRING FORGOT, Adam made a mistake and HIS OFFSPRING MADE MISTAKES.))
At-Tirmidhi said, “This Hadith is Hasan Sahih, and it was reported from various chains of narration through Abu Hurayrah from the Prophet. Al-Hakim also recorded it in his Mustadrak, and said; Sahih according to the criteria of Muslim, and they did not record it.”
These and similar Hadiths testify that Allah, the Exalted and Most Honored, brought forth Adam’s offspring from his loins and separated between the inhabitants of Paradise and those of the Fire… (Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Q. 7:172)
Muhammad even believed that Allah would punish Jews and Christians in hell for the sins committed by Muslims:
Chapter 8: THROWING OF NON-BELIEVERS IN HELL-FIRE FOR BELIEVERS AS DIVINE GRACE AND MERCY
Abu Musa’ reported that Allah’s Messenger said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your RESCUE from Hell-Fire. (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6665)
Abu Burda reported on the authority of his father that Allah’s Apostle said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit IN HIS STEAD a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire. ‘Umar b. Abd al-‘Aziz took an oath: By One besides Whom there is no god but He, thrice that his father had narrated that to him from Allah’s Messenger. (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6666)
Abu Burda reported Allah’s Messenger as saying: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with AS HEAVY SINS AS A MOUNTAIN, and Allah would FORGIVE THEM and He would PLACE IN THEIR STEAD the Jews and the Christians. (As far as I think), Abu Raub said: I do not know as to who is in doubt. Abu Burda said: I narrated it to ‘Umar b. ‘Abd al-‘Aziz, whereupon he said: Was it your father who narrated it to you from Allah’s Apostle? I said: Yes. (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6668)
Superiority of the believers in the Oneness of Allah and the punishment of the Jews and Christians
8) Narrated Abu Musa: Allah’s Messenger said: On the Day of Resurrection, my Ummah (nation) will be gathered into three groups. One sort will enter Paradise without rendering an account (of their deeds). Another sort will be reckoned an easy account and admitted into Paradise. Yet another sort will come bearing on their backs heaps of sins like great mountains. Allah will ask the angels though He knows best about them: Who are these people? They will reply: They are humble slaves of yours. He will say: Unload the sins from them and put the same over the Jews and Christians: then let the humble slaves get into Paradise by virtue of My Mercy.
(This Hadith is sound and mentioned in Mustadrak of Hakim). (110 Hadith Qudsi (Sacred Hadith), translated by Syed Masood-ul-Hasan, revision and commentaries by Ibrahim m. Kunna [Darussalam Publishers and Distributors], pp. 19-20)
These hadiths shockingly testify that Allah is going to ransom Muslims from judgment by condemning Jews and Christians to hell in their place! According to Muhammad, Allah is going to actually place all the sins of the Muslims upon the Jews and Christians so as to punish them for the evil and wicked acts committed by Muhammad’s followers!
Thus, instead of the sinless Son of God ransoming men from eternal wrath by his death on the cross, Muhammad believed that Allah will actually accept the sacrifice of fallible, imperfect beings as an adequate substitute for the crimes committed by Muslims!
This further shows that Muhammad had no problem with Allah actually punishing people for their own personal sins as well as for the transgressions of others. After all, the Jews and Christians are not only going to be sent to hell for the evil deeds of Muslims but also for their own sins, especially for the crime of rejecting Muhammad as a prophet and messenger.
In light of such teachings, Kunde is going to have to reject Muhammad and abandon Islam altogether if he is to remain honest and consistent.
I really wish that all Muslim debaters would spend a few semesters at the Sam Shamoun School of Religious Consistency. It would keep them from constantly attacking their own religion (without knowing it). Here’s Sam’s third reply to Abdullah Kunde:
“We also need to accept that it implies a limited God, a God that cannot hold the attributes of eternalness, being all-powerful, and also a unified God. Why? When we say that God is one in opposition to the Trinity, we don’t mean one in terms of the numerical one, that zero can come before it and two can come after it. We mean it in an absolute unity that is not describable in mathematical terms. And when we consider the Trinity, that actually applies a created aspect to God. You’re saying three; the number three in that two comes before it and four comes after it. There’s no way around this, it’s not a complex number. For those of you doing mathematics or science you’ll know it’s even been in the real number system, three. So you’re applying a created aspect to God, and there can absolutely be no such divine unity in that concept. Even if somebody came to you and said that God is one in the sense of the number one, that zero can come before it and two can come after it, that in itself is not even a proper unity, in terms of a godly unity. It’s very important to understand that point.” (Saviour of the World: Jesus or the Quran?)
Kunde keeps creating problems for his own theological views. If what says here is correct, we can only conclude that Muhammad was mistaken on several counts.
First, it is apparent that Muhammad defined Allah’s oneness numerically. This can be readily seen from the following Quranic verses:
O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector. S. 4:171 Shakir
Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one God, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve. S. 5:73 Shakir
By contrasting Allah’s unity with the alleged belief of “Christians” who supposedly claimed that God is three and the third of three, it is apparent that Muhammad was thinking in terms of numerical oneness in that zero can come before it and two come after it.
Muhammad is reported to have also said that Allah is odd or single (witr) and actually likes odd and single numbers as a result of being an odd/single number himself:
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah has ninety-nine Names, i.e., one hundred minus one, and whoever believes in their meanings and acts accordingly, will enter Paradise; and Allah is Witr (one) and loves ‘the Witr’ (i.e., odd numbers). (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 75, Number 419)
Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger as saying: There are ninety-nine names of Allah; he who commits them to memory would get into Paradise. Verily, Allah is Odd (He is one, and it is an odd number) and He loves odd numbers. And in the narration of Ibn ‘Umar (the words are): “He who enumerated them.” (Sahih Muslim, Book 035, Number 6475)
Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Apostle as saying: Verily, there are ninety-nine names for Allah, i.e. hundred excepting one. He who enumerates them would get into Paradise. And Hammam has made this addition on the authority of Abu Huraira who reported it from Allah’s Apostle that he said: “He is Odd (one) and loves odd numbers.” (Sahih Muslim, Book 035, Number 6476)
Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib: The Prophet said: Allah is single (witr) and loves what is single, so observe the witr, you who follow the Qur’an. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 8, Number 1411)
No one can doubt that Muhammad is clearly likening Allah’s unity to odd or single numbers, i.e. Allah is one, which is an odd and single number. He even says that this is the reason why the Muslim god likes odd or single numbers. Apparently, had Allah been two or ten then he would have liked even and double digit numbers instead.
This comparison to the numerical system again establishes that in Muhammad’s mind Allah is numerically one in the sense that zero can come before it and two come right after it.
Also notice how the preceding narratives from both al-Bukhari and Muslim refer to Allah having ninety-nine, or more specifically a hundred minus one, names (attributes, characteristics). Here is another narration which states the same thing:
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah’s Apostle said, “Allah has ninety-nine names, i.e. one hundred MINUS ONE, and whoever knows them will go to Paradise.” (Please see Hadith No. 419 Vol. 8). (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 50, Number 894)
Muhammad even believed that Allah divided his attribute of mercy into one hundred parts!
Narrated Abu Huraira: I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, Verily Allah created Mercy. The day He created it, He made it into one hundred parts. He withheld with Him ninety-nine parts, and sent its one part to all His creatures. Had the non-believer known of all the Mercy which is in the Hands of Allah, he would not lose hope of entering Paradise, and had the believer known of all the punishment which is present with Allah, he would not consider himself safe from the Hell-Fire.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 76, Number 476)
It is once again evident that Muhammad was thinking in terms of the actual numerical system. There is simply no way of denying this fact. Muhammad obviously believed that Allah’s attributes could be numbered since he listed them as ninety-nine, and that these could be further divided much like in the case of mercy which Allah broke down into one hundred parts.
Thus, Muhammad actually thought that Allah’s attributes are numerically ninety-nine in the sense that ninety-eight can come before it and one hundred can come right after it. Since this is what Muhammad clearly believed, we must conclude that, according to Kunde’s logic, there must be a created aspect to the Islamic deity, for he is a being composed of real numerical limitations. As such, Allah is neither eternal nor is he omnipotent.
The final problem with Kunde’s assertion is that if Allah is not a numerical one, but a UNIFIED one as he claims, then Kunde no longer has any grounds to object to the possibility of God existing as three distinct divine Persons. After all, if God’s unified nature can be composed of a plurality of names and attributes then surely God can exist as three Divine Persons who are unified in a single essence or being. In fact, on Kunde’s view Allah can actually be an infinite number of Persons since his oneness is not constricted to or confined within a numerical system such as we find in the case of a numerical oneness.
Hence, instead of refuting the Trinity, Kunde actually provides a strong reason why God’s unity in no way undermines or rules out the Biblical teaching that God exists as three eternally distinct divine Persons. Kunde’s argument actually affirms that it is quite consistent with the belief in God being a unified one as opposed to a numerical one.